All the NSFW stuff coming off of TVT currently

Firebert

Repentant pedophiles don't gush about anime child porn in their first post.

ClockworkUniverse

Bearin mind, after Tnu, we actually made a rule against the whole "oh, this forum is so important to me! I'll get therapy as long as you don't ban me" thing.

Flyboy

That was a joke.

I read this in EDI's voice and it was hilarious.  XD

InsanityAddict

Given the manner in which he 'listened' to us, he'd behave solipsistic, spineless, whiny and socially naive to a fault. That's a toxic mix of traits I don't want to touch with a ten-foot barge pole unless it was to club some sense into that mess, which is a fruitless effort and only makes the one doing the clubbing look bad. I've dealt with those types in meatspace before and to my knowledge they never, ever improved.

Ironweaver

I think being a pedophile and not feeling any shame whatsoever is reason enough for a ban. See, it is bad and we can all agree on that. Being a pedophile doesn't necessarily imply that they are a bad person, but freely admitting it without any repentance does. We don't need such people on our forum. Say, if somebody among us showed up one day and said "Hey guys, I robbed, raped and killed an elderly couple and am now on the run from the cops" should we let him stay on the forum?

Besides, we've banned for smaller things. Like when UberShyGuy was pre-emptively banned solely because he's kinda annoying. Does a pedophile deserve better?

All Nines

I'd say that being an unrepentant pedophile is plenty of grounds to be banned

I don't see that you're disagreeing with me, but the keyword there is "unrepentant"; that, again, ties into mindset, rather than a mental disorder that he really can't control.

Firebert

I read this in GLaDOS' voice and it was hilarious. XD

 I read it in EDI's voice, which I suppose is the same.

gentlemanorcus

That would essentially be doing 1984's whole "thoughtcrime" thing. 

I'm sorry if I seem condescending, but I thought you were above THOUGHTCRIME!!!!!! arguments, Alex.

As has been said, even disregarding his kiddy-fiddling ways, he still showed many traits of Tnu and Chagen. I don't know about the rest of you, but I'd rather he be banned and not have to deal with the possibility of having Tnu-like traits than keep him around and most likely waste our time on the even smaller chance that we could possibly change his life for the better. Call me cynical.

^ He edited it.

MadassAlex

Repentant pedophiles don't gush about anime child porn in their first post.

Perhaps we might have influenced him. Who knows? I don't care about the ban, but I'm concerned about the justification of shaming tactics when constructive methods might have had a chance of working. It might have been a waste of our time either way, but the potential of gentler methods to influence Draven towards change is infinitely greater than shaming that will only get him to save face. 

^ It works here. Because behaving in a negative fashion towards someone, not because of something they've done but because of something they are is pretty horrible. 

And, oh, hey, you're trying to do that shaming thing.

Nova

I think being a pedophile and not feeling any shame whatsoever is reason enough for a ban. See, it is bad and we can all agree on that. Being a pedophile doesn't necessarily imply that they are a bad person, but freely admitting it without any repentance does.

A point I should bring up here is that he wasn't unrepentant, he didn't understand that it was actually a bad thing. I'm not sure which is worse.

Besides, we've banned for smaller things. Like when UberShyGuy was pre-emptively banned solely because he's kinda annoying. Does a pedophile deserve better?

I'm fairly sure he was banned because the mods had previous experience with him and knew he was a dramawhore.

Flyboy

I don't see that you're disagreeing with me, but the keyword there is "unrepentant"; that, again, ties into mindset, rather than a mental disorder that he really can't control.

Kleptomaniacs can't control their stealing, but the vast majority know stealing is wrong and feel shame for it.  They also know that they have to try and avoid doing it if they can, and make it up and return the things they take if possible. 

Likewise, a pedophile should know that such things are bad, and that said thoughts aren't to be defended.  He (haphazardly) attempted to defend it, and that is why I say unrepentant. 

 I read it in EDI's voice, which I suppose is the same.

That's actually what I meant to say, and I've edited it accordingly.  XD

All Nines

My only concern with a gentler approach would be that he might feel the recommendation that he still seek a therapist wouldn't really be a priority, or it would be too light, because he's already been welcomed. There were posts that were almost to that effect anyway, if tinged with harshness as a result of incredulity.

^ Wasn't disagreeing with you, either; I just wanted to use your post to make a point, since it was concise and close by. :P

I'm fairly sure he was banned because the mods had previous experience with him and knew he was a dramawhore.

Well, and a racist, though that's technically related to being a dramawhore.

A point I should bring up here is that he wasn't unrepentant, he didn't understand that it was actually a bad thing. I'm not sure which is worse.

I say unrepentant because his primary concern seemed to be saving face, as opposed to actually bettering himself, hence the repeated comparisons to Tnu and Chagen.

Nova

behaving in a negative fashion towards someone, not because of something they've done but because of something they are is pretty horrible

I should point out that the only reason I even started posting here is because he admitted that he would fuck kids. The situation he gave is hypothetical- animeland where lolis have sex all the time- but the fact that he isn't saying "I would never ever fuck a kid under any circumstances no matter what even though I'm attracted to them" is more than just him being a pedophile.

gentlemanorcus

And, oh, hey, you're trying to do that shaming thing.

 I'm sorry if it seemed that way, I wasn't trying to. 

Crimson

^^^Indeed. The fact that we offered the suggestion of therapy at all meant that we were far nicer than we could have been.

Ironweaver

Who would've expected this to turn into an argument between consequentialist and virtue ethics?

Flyboy

A point I should bring up here is that he wasn't unrepentant, he didn't understand that it was actually a bad thing. I'm not sure which is worse.

But he did, insofar as I can tell, since he acknowledged that having sex with a real little girl would cause her actual harm.  He comprehends that children aren't supposed to be in sexual relationships.  He just doesn't seem to care.

It works here. Because behaving in a negative fashion towards someone, not because of something they've done but because of something they are is pretty horrible.

Again, though, if he'd kept his trap shut about it, or came at it from the angle of "oh god why is this happening to me please help," I'd be totally sympathetic.  Instead, he came in with "oh yeah pedo anime is awesome why do you guys hate?"  And that is worth condemning in full. 

Wasn't disagreeing with you, either; I just wanted to use your post to make a point, since it was concise and close by. :P

Oh, alright. 

Nova

I say unrepentant because his primary concern seemed to be saving face, as opposed to actually bettering himself, hence the repeated comparisons to Tnu and Chagen.

But I was saying that he wasn't unrepentant.

Well, actually, I guess he was, but that's more of a byproduct of him not understanding that wanting to screw little kids is wrong.

MrW

I think I actually stated early on that he certainly wasn't another Chagen, who had the added problem of being highly argumentative and unfriendly.

I don't think anyone had something to be proud of saying in this thread, myself included. I wasn't a fan of his attitude towards his interests, but comparing it to outright murder(which I did) was fairly harsh of me, even if my presence here wasn't very strong.

gentlemanorcus

It works here. Because behaving in a negative fashion towards someone, not because of something they've done but because of something they are is pretty horrible.

Pretty much admitting "hey, guys, I have fantasies about children" and not keeping shut about it, as I assume most pedophiles who have not acted on their fetish would learn to do around people he barely knows, suggests an unhealthy view of his fetish right from the bat. Showing further Tnu-like traits ("I don't trust therapists", putting up a pretty obvious "Okay, I'll go to a therapist if you guys shut up about it" facade) seems pretty indicative of problems reaching beyond his fetish, which is admittedly something he can't really help.

All Nines

@gentlemanorcus: There was the post by dracosketch--"Pedophilia is wrong and disgusting", or something, and some posts that shared that sentiment. There was a bit of what Alex is talking about. Not saying that it isn't wrong or disgusting, but there were people in the thread who were only in it to shame him for having a mental disorder.

MadassAlex

Pretty much admitting "hey, guys, I have fantasies about children" and not keeping shut about it, as I assume most pedophiles who have not acted on their fetish would learn to do around people he barely knows, suggests an unhealthy view of his fetish right from the bat. Showing further Tnu-like traits ("I don't trust therapists", putting up a pretty obvious "Okay, I'll go to a therapist if you guys shut up about it" facade) seems pretty indicative of problems reaching beyond his fetish, something he can't really help.

That certainly justifies criticism, but it doesn't justify what we saw in this thread. 

My argument isn't that we ought not to have criticised Draven, but that in doing so we ought to have been more conscious of a potential positive outcome. 

Nova

My argument isn't that we ought not to have criticised Draven, but that in doing so we ought to have been more conscious of a potential positive outcome. 

This does, however, bring me back to my original point here; that it's not our onus to seek out a positive outcome for him here.

Flyboy

While I'd prefer a positive outcome too, Alex, I highly doubt we could have accomplished much over the internet if we tried.  Even if any of us have psychology degrees and are practicing psychiatrists...

Edit:  I dunno, Nova.  I'd say we do have a moral obligation to help people like him, but that doesn't mean to do so blindly.  The format we're using isn't practical for such things.  He needs real life help, not internet armchair psychiatry. 

InsanityAddict

^^^^It's a fetish. I'd argue making an identity of one's fetish leads to him being so up in arms about it and failing to see how empty the words 'wrong and disgusting' are, but as I've been aptly labeled 4changuy, my perimeters on what constitutes easily offended are probably skewed.

MadassAlex

This does, however, bring me back to my original point here; that it's not our onus to seek out a positive outcome for him here.

True, but our conduct is our responsibility all the same. I think, if one doesn't want to deal with it, they ought not to at all. And if they do want to deal with it, then they should do so constructively. 

ClockworkUniverse

>we ought to have been more conscious of a potential positive outcome. 



Honestly, to me it's less that and more that there wasn't any reason to be dicks about it.

gentlemanorcus

My argument isn't that we ought not to have criticised Draven, but that in doing so we should have been more conscious of a potential positive outcome. 

But the thing is, if he's as Tnu-ish as he appeared to be, then nothing we could have done would have helped him. It would just go around in circles, until we got tired of it and banned him.

Should we have waited and seen if he was as Tnu-ish as he seemed? Maybe. But wasting our time trying to help a guy with a fetish even though none of us probably have any experience psychologically helping people over the Internet, when it's most likely a problem only real life could fix, just doesn't seem worth it to me.

That's the main difference between you and me, I guess. You think that we should spend time helping some guy none of us know to fix his problems on the slight chance we could help him change. I respect that opinion, but I've seen too many Tnus and Chagens to believe we could make any difference, or that spending time to help him would be anything but a waste.

Nova

I dunno, Nova.  I'd say we do have a moral obligation to help people like him, but that doesn't mean to do so blindly.  The format we're using isn't practical for such things.  He needs real life help, not internet armchair psychiatry. 

I would say that attempting to help someone places a lot of responsibility on the person attempting to help him. I do not think that there are a lot of us that could actually help him without crushing ourselves.

I mean, just look at how trying to help Tnu affected Annebeeche.

Crimson

Honestly, to me it's less that and more that there wasn't any reason to be dicks about it.

And I my honest opinion, wondering if were dicks to a pedophile should be the least of our concerns.