"Diversity for diversity's sake"

Gelzo

Are you going to cry "racism" every time a gang member is black?

AHR

I don't think Buffy/Angel is a very good show to defend when it comes to racial stereotypes.

I mean, look at how they handle their British characters, or Kendra. 

I love the show, but they've always flirted with the stereotypical, in the way it flirts with many things.

Malkavian

^That's a fair point.

Or how they handled Bostonites with Faith for that matter. XD

In any case though, I think it's perfectly possible to expand a show's racial cast without devolving into stereotypes.

AHR

Yeah, I've always been one to be all for diversity for diversity's sake.

Sure, it can be fucked up majorly, but the thing is, I think it's a healthier angle to take than having a default.

RedEyedAbyss

It's perfectly possible for real people to exist without them devolving into stereotypes.

^Ugh. The notion of a default. The reason this dumb argument (not necessarily this thread, to be clear) exists in the first place.

AHR

Yeah. I know. An IJBM all to itself.

Counterclock

Maybe I should play the Extra Credits video instead.

Gelzo

I think the default in fiction in most cases should be a reflection of reality, since that's what we assume is in place when we aren't given descriptions to the contrary (barring certain tropes of course). Any deviation from that is something that I think can be taken as a conscious decision by the creator, or just a different interpretation of reality. 

AHR

But the default for everyone is what they are.

How the hell are you supposed to make that work? 

I mean, I'm white, but I ain't christian, so already I'm a default of my reality that's different than many others' defaults.

Malkavian

^^^^^Yeah, that's a big issue that causes this. I remember reading a kid's book where a white person said that Halloween costumes must be easier for other races because 'they're already something.'

Which is quite similar to the mentality that says that a black person has to have specific reasons to be black. I mean, what's wrong with just making the computer hacker dude black or the Half-vampire vampire hunter black.

Tomb of Dracula adding Blade! Another instance of expanding racial diversity without using stereotypes!

^^Everyone's interpretation of reality is different.

RedEyedAbyss

^^^Okay. Lovely. So explain why the overwhelming majority of anime characters look Caucasian.

Gelzo

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Mukokuseki

P.S. I said barring certain tropes. The bad guy winning in the end happens more often in reality, but it's a betrayal of what we expect in fiction so it's not the default.

AHR

IJBM:

One skin tone.

Even when everyone is white, everyone is white DIFFERENTLY, dammit.

RedEyedAbyss

In other words, because of the notion of a default which does not necessarily reflect reality. On a side note, we just had a thread about nuclear families and how they are treated as a default despite not always being so in reality.

Malkavian

I'm confused as to why we should defer to reality, even if we could agree on a unified one. (which we obviously can't) Reality sucks and some people add diversity where it doesn't fit (say like in a military vessel) in order to help foster change in reality.

Gelzo

^^^Artists leaving out details happens.

^^I consider it more common just going by my experience. I dunno what else I can say.

^I'm not saying we should default to reality, I'm saying how we see reality is a close approximation to what could be considered a default in fiction.

RedEyedAbyss

I'd argue that "reality" is actually an artificial construct which one perceives as reality and may not actually be accurate to reality. Again, hence the notion of a default.

(shut up, I've been taking Philosophy of Mind classes)

AHR

So, why is hair color and eye color not a "left out detail"?

Malkavian

Fun fact. From a world population view 'minorities' aren't actually in the minority.

^^Also, this is basically what I've been saying, though trying to avoid philosophy terminology.

RedEyedAbyss

Yes, that always bugged me. Especially because 1/3 of the world's population consists of people in China and India. But since we all live in America....

Gelzo

I should just make new posts instead of editing my old ones.

captainbrass

"From a world population view "minorities" aren't actually in the minority"

An example of this - if you think of the Anglican Church (or the Episcopalian Church as it's often known outside the UK) you'd probably think there's not a whiter, more European group of people anywhere.

Actually three-quarters of members of churches in the Anglican Communion worldwide are from Africa or Asia.

Gelzo

@AHR: Because it's more visually striking?

AHR

You know what's really visually striking?

Different skin tones.

Hence trope Pale Brunette, or whatever it's called nowadays.

Gelzo

Okay, I'm not an artist so I really can't give definite answers. Could you remind me of the point of this line of questioning?

AHR

The fact that people just don't consider race in a way that they should, when designing characters.

Gelzo

Tell me why and how they "should"?

AHR

The same way people want diverse characterization, silhouettes and designs for their character, their heritage should be something unique as well. You want characters to be unique, stand out, each in their own way. And that's by characterizing them differently, making their body types and over all shapes different, and giving them unique hair styles, eye colors, and clothing.

But, race is completely forgotten in this.

Gelzo

Okay then.

Now, you're generalizing here. Differences in "white" skin tone exist in some cartoons and not others, as with differences in shapes, sizes, eye color, etc. Some artists use a detail to differentiate their characters and some don't. Skin tone isn't always in one category or the other.

Look at Lucky Star. A lot of the characters have same-y faces, but the skin tone of Miyuki is the palest out of the four main characters.

RedEyedAbyss

V Diversity. (Thanks, AHR, for allowing me to wipe that from my posts)