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The General understanding of Libertarianism.

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Comments

  • If you must eat a phoenix, boil it, do not roast it. This only encourages their mischievous habits.
    I said, is it not better to have people holding insincere values, than to say "Insincere values are bad", disallow them, and allow people to come to harm as a result?
  • As far as this one understands - please correct her if she's wrong - under libertarianism, if this one is in need of medical attention, currently has no money and noone of charitable mind decides to help her, she should just be left to die.
  • edited 2011-05-30 22:14:16
    Writer, Artist, Obscure.
    Personally thumped for rage induced rant
  • you people are missing the point of individualism it's not so much that individuals shouldn't meet and itneract it's that it should be voluntary rights are not inherent in a collective they are inherent in the individual but what i'mw orried about is that society can not come without this mindset that our rights have to come from the state or only given communities or collectives have rights. What exactly is your deal Mousa?
  • If you must eat a phoenix, boil it, do not roast it. This only encourages their mischievous habits.
    Mousa: Attacking a user is against the rules. Attack their contents or their beliefs, not the user, thank you.
  • edited 2011-05-30 22:19:25

    @Beholderess: amung libertarians, it varies. More strict libertarians believe that private charities should care for those who need care, while some less strict ones support very limited health care benefits that only pay for the "most necessary services" and is only provided to those who truly can't afford it, or support simply heavily trimming (as oppose to "lightly" or "moderately" trimming) existing social services that are bloated / inefficient / likely to become insolvent.

    At least that's what I thought....

  • Rights most surely do not come from state, but without it, protecting said rights is troublesome at best. Which of course does not mean that the state should be given a free license to disregard people's rights - quite the contrary.

    However, this one does think that some rights are more important than others, and property and enterprise rights are near the bottom of the ladder of importance.

    This one would rather not go away with things like healthcare, police, firefighters, education, workplace safety measures and so on, for without such things, rights remain only words on paper.
  • edited 2011-05-30 22:21:56
    Writer, Artist, Obscure.
    Personally thumped.
  • edited 2011-05-30 22:24:02
    Self-thumped
  • If you must eat a phoenix, boil it, do not roast it. This only encourages their mischievous habits.
    MOUSA. ENOUGH.
  • edited 2011-05-30 22:37:04

    To me priorities are the issue, because I would put business decision rights higher, because without that the government could tell me "you can get free health care, but you can't talk to the doctor who you've been seeing who actually understands your problems."

    I have a hypothesis that priorities are based on fear.  If you fear being left for dead because the system refuses to help, health care is more important, if you fear having choices taken, freedom in that area is more important, etc.

  • Umm, as far as this one knows, free healthcare does not mean that private clinics are forbidden to practice. So you can go to the doctor you want to see if you have money and to whoever is available if you don't. You don't have to use free healthcare if you don't want to, so the choice is not being taken away.

    But of course this one can be mistaken about it.

    As for the fear, you might be right about it. But thing is, any large organisation (including government, of course - that's why it's actions have to be monitored) will leave people for dead given such choice. It has to be forced in order to act otherwise. For example, look at the conditions for workers in the companies if said companies manage to avoid OSHA compliance. They will not (with the rare exceptions) improve conditions voluntary.
  • Hmm, another issue brought up in a different thread is that there is a difference between declared freedoms and real freedoms. Libertarianism seems to proclaim absolute, well, liberty, but who can actually use it? Only a few. As an old joke goes, "Do I have the right? Yes, you do. Can I then...? Of course you can't!".

    Does a person who is not allowed to do something has any less freedom than someone who is allowed to, but cannot possibly afford it? Technically, yes, but only barely.

    In the situation when, say, noone tries to do something about an unemployment rates nor enforce the standards of minimum wage and workplace safety, nor is any sort of welfare assigned to help unemployed - can a potential employee really refuse to work in an unsafe location? No, because that would mean unemployment=no money=no help=death.
  • The general idea behidn that is that usually the employee and employer negotiate terms themselves if the employee or customer in any given situation doesn't like the conditions there are plenty of opportunities about. That's the idea anyway.
  • One of the big concepts is self-realization actually to make you realize just what kind of value you have. People are of the mindset that workers are insignificant or something. The truth of it is that workers zactually are probably some of the most valuable resources the market has. You own that resource inherently so you are the one who gets to barter it so the big thing is not to sell yourself short and if you don't like the way anyone operates you can create your own set of circumstances. Start your own small business, refuse to budge no matter what they throw at you.
  • If you must eat a phoenix, boil it, do not roast it. This only encourages their mischievous habits.
    They don't throw anything at you.

    A large business simply just has to undercut you.
  • edited 2011-06-01 02:35:15
    I don't know about you but that is when I just refuse to lose. I am not afraid of that fucking MegaCorp because I know I can beat them in to the ground. I have a dream and I refuse to give it up. The day I surrender to their kind is the day I take my last breath. You have to consider that the working class is the driving force sure the businessmen orginize things but the workers are the blood of the market. You as a worker  can bring the establishment down on to its knees. You have power that you have not even begun to tap in to.
  • If you must eat a phoenix, boil it, do not roast it. This only encourages their mischievous habits.
    Congratulations. You have power. Unfortunately, you also have a falling profit margin and a shrinking customer base. Sucks to be you.
  • edited 2011-06-01 04:11:05
    The general idea behidn that is that usually the employee and employer
    negotiate terms themselves if the employee or customer in any given
    situation doesn't like the conditions there are plenty of opportunities
    about. That's the idea anyway.

    This one understands that this is supposed to be so. But it doesn't happen. Again you expect people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps or die if they fail to do so. One would think that people currently working in sweatshops with no regulations would work somewhere else if they had a choice. Oh, of course on the paper they do have a choice, but in fact? If they have a choice, why are they here?
  • Tnu... you don't have to surrender, but nobody said you can't pretend. The Slave Collective of society functions on doing one thing and giving the impression of another, and so will think nothing of you exploiting that to your own ends. Advertising your adversity will simply make them oppress you harder and make it far tougher to get things to work your way.
    Learn to understand in detail how they think. Manipulate their weaknesses. Become resistant to them yourself. That is how you can get ahead.
    Oh, and remember:  "value" is a reductionist concept of the collective. It is the transformation of multidimensional structures into a monodimensional figure. A simplification. The transformation of a person into a number. Value is something that one who seeks to regain their individuality does not need.


       


    Beholderess... why do you talk like a Hanar? Supplementing pronouns with such terms doesn't make them any less self-referential.


     


     


     

  • It is a habit amusing enough to keep, nothing more. If you find it annoying, this one apologises and offers not to use it in conversations with you, although reserves the right to use it in general conversations.
  • Nah. Just worried that my old tendency to talk like HK-47 might flare up.
    People kept having a go at me for calling them meatbags too, but these days I just mix it up a little. Isn't like I can stop thinking of people as bundles of soggy things on phosphate frames.

  • All that fluid can get inconvenient at times but the innate self repair capabilities are a big plus. 
  • What was that about Fargle?

    You don't know that Cygan. You are assuming the worst also see my thread on my utter hatred of Cronyism the state and the private sector are not meant to mix. I intend to win the same way thge founders of the United States won their independence. By refusing ot lose and refusing to hide. I shall recognize what power I have as an individual and not back down from collectives like corporations or the state. Honestly right now I just feel so energized and hopeful that I can make it and win. The proletariat need to start their journy with this sort of energy. We need to simply refuse to lose.
  • If you must eat a phoenix, boil it, do not roast it. This only encourages their mischievous habits.
    You cannot win because the mega-corporations can simply afford to lower their prices more than yours. People will flock to them because it is cheaper; and meanwhile, due to lack of customers, you will be forced further into debt.

    This is not negativity.

    This is a tried and true business practice. It has been done before, it is effective.

    You can refuse to lose all you want.

    But it is an impossibility to win when such business practices are in play.
  • your assuming they have the ability to do that unless people are intent on working for this business and are content with their situation I doubt they would prop it up. Like I said the workers are the blood of the market. If the workers are unhappy with a business they can merely stop support ing it en mass and allow it to crash and burn to the ground. Honestly the ideal state would be a business run democratically through workers self management based on a federalist democratic system of operations. In order for us to properly pull ourselves up from this we have to reject all masters. Think something along the lines of Mondragon Corporation.


  • edited 2011-06-01 09:09:16
    RE-ANIMATOR
    This is not Tenga Toppa Gurren Lagann.
    Yours is not the drill that will pierce the heavens.
    "Row row, fight tha powah" will not get you anywhere.
    Refusing to lose does nothing. The option is not yours to take. The meat-mind controls everything. They can string you up AND make you dance so easily they don't even have to think about it and you don't even have to know they're doing it.  Humanity itself is an abomination, less than eldritch but every bit as horrific, and you cannot fight it. Just trying to fight it results in failure and 2D6 sanity loss.
    The only way not to lose is to undermine it... to try and act outside of its knowledge. To hide, essentially. If you're not willing to do that... then it is Game Over before you've even started.

  • If you must eat a phoenix, boil it, do not roast it. This only encourages their mischievous habits.
    Who's saying anything about the workers?
  • I am. The worker is probably the most important unit in a business. The management may controle most things and handle stuff like allocation and management of resources but ultimately they do nothing when it comes to the actual production. That is why the workers have so much untapped power. They are the only reason that the management has anything to profit from int he first place. While the workers could function independently  provided the proper system the management can't function without workers so ultimately  it's a federalist system that actually works from the bottom up.  With the workers not only having the advantage of their ability to produce making the management dependent on them but also the strength of numbers. I would like to think that the workers would know when they are getting a raw deal and ultimately revolt en mass replacing the force of the state with passive resistance and the power they have to bring the operation to a grinding halt. We need to realize this power and gain our autonomy from the establishment. Choosing to be a slave to either form of tyranny is unforgivable. It is a very unwise thing to become content with a situation and never to rebel because of fear. I fight because I have something to fight for.
  • edited 2011-06-01 09:50:18
    If you must eat a phoenix, boil it, do not roast it. This only encourages their mischievous habits.
    The most fundamental part of a business is its' resources; of which workers are one, but they are not the most important.
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